Comments on: Browser Panel at SXSW http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html Musings on technology, the Web, mobility and beyond Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:09:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: BIMA Blog » Firefox will be eat’n alive by Opera and the iPhone http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-11698 BIMA Blog » Firefox will be eat’n alive by Opera and the iPhone Mon, 30 Apr 2007 15:35:38 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-11698 [...] I was astonished to read (on Dan’s blog) that Mozilla doesn’t think users want to access the Web on mobile devices. Hence my picture above of what Mozilla must have in mind when it comes to the Web on the move, anytime, anywhere. [...] [...] I was astonished to read (on Dan’s blog) that Mozilla doesn’t think users want to access the Web on mobile devices. Hence my picture above of what Mozilla must have in mind when it comes to the Web on the move, anytime, anywhere. [...]

]]> By: AzureTimm http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-9466 AzureTimm Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:43:01 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-9466 I don't know whether it's my terrible English or something, but I found typing on a tiny 9-key keypad is tremendously faster than on a keyboard. Just let you know in my case it's about 3 times faster, with auto-correction (which is useful for a English learner like me). I have been keeping a blog for half a year on Opera Mini, you can visit it via the links I provided, almost everything I wrote is when I was waiting in a queue, walking from home to school, riding on a bus, Opera Mini always kept of occupied. Of course I don't mean web is the same as mobile web, but web on mobile is very convenient... At least for me. Sorry for my insane ramblings. Thank you for your answer. I don’t know whether it’s my terrible English or something, but I found typing on a tiny 9-key keypad is tremendously faster than on a keyboard. Just let you know in my case it’s about 3 times faster, with auto-correction (which is useful for a English learner like me). I have been keeping a blog for half a year on Opera Mini, you can visit it via the links I provided, almost everything I wrote is when I was waiting in a queue, walking from home to school, riding on a bus, Opera Mini always kept of occupied. Of course I don’t mean web is the same as mobile web, but web on mobile is very convenient… At least for me. Sorry for my insane ramblings. Thank you for your answer.

]]> By: arunerblog http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-8272 arunerblog Mon, 26 Mar 2007 08:23:34 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-8272 <strong>Scooped!...</strong> "I don't know what you're so highly strung about," Charles said to me, a few minutes before our panel was about to begin. I was anxiously asking him to wolf his breakfast down and rush to the Green Room, which...... Scooped!…

“I don’t know what you’re so highly strung about,” Charles said to me, a few minutes before our panel was about to begin. I was anxiously asking him to wolf his breakfast down and rush to the Green Room, which……

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7562 Brendan Eich Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:30:14 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7562 AzureTimm: read what I wrote (which is what I said): *edit* wikipedia. Also try not to make yourself the norm when you are not. I mean absolutely no disrespect. I'm serious that reading fine-print documents, sitting, thinking, typing at high kpm rate, is all better done at a desktop compared to a small device in ways that will continue to fragment the "mobile web" from "the web". I doubt Daniel disagrees. Continuing to misrepresent my position as "no one browses on phones" is, well, phony (sorry!). /be AzureTimm: read what I wrote (which is what I said): *edit* wikipedia. Also try not to make yourself the norm when you are not. I mean absolutely no disrespect. I’m serious that reading fine-print documents, sitting, thinking, typing at high kpm rate, is all better done at a desktop compared to a small device in ways that will continue to fragment the “mobile web” from “the web”.

I doubt Daniel disagrees.

Continuing to misrepresent my position as “no one browses on phones” is, well, phony (sorry!).

/be

]]> By: Daniel Appelquist http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7548 Daniel Appelquist Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:08:36 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7548 The future has spoken. The future has spoken.

]]> By: AzureTimm http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7540 AzureTimm Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:46:17 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7540 Oh come on, I'm reading this on my mobile phone Nokia 6020 with Opera Mini 3.1, and I use Wikipedia on my phone at LEAST 5 times a Day... I'm a Chinese student, mind you... Oh come on, I’m reading this on my mobile phone Nokia 6020 with Opera Mini 3.1, and I use Wikipedia on my phone at LEAST 5 times a Day… I’m a Chinese student, mind you…

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7457 Brendan Eich Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:23:22 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7457 I try not to run the air-conditioning in the limo while recharging my gold-plated macbook pro, honest :-P. My point is not peculiar to Americans. The web is good on many devices, but the web is too big to generalize as if it fits equally well on every device. And, as I said at the panel, the tasks and modes of use differ anyway. My example of typing and editing a wikipedia update was one case. Sure, hardcore mobile users will do that -- they'll ssh to a linux box and hack kernel code too. But that is not a meaningful sample. Most mobile users want good maps, better "messaging" and "mail" integration, some concise calendar stuff, and other shorter-term, on-the-go task-oriented user-facing applications. You can build these in a browser using web content standards, or using something like J2ME. I'm in favor of the web as platform supporting the former. But mobile devices will always differ enough in form factor and usage mode to induce differentiation, which will result in "mobile web" vs "web" tension. To heal the rifts, we should work on relevant standards. I'm not sure WICD is quite right (see dbaron's blog), but its heart is in the right place. /be I try not to run the air-conditioning in the limo while recharging my gold-plated macbook pro, honest :-P.

My point is not peculiar to Americans. The web is good on many devices, but the web is too big to generalize as if it fits equally well on every device. And, as I said at the panel, the tasks and modes of use differ anyway. My example of typing and editing a wikipedia update was one case. Sure, hardcore mobile users will do that — they’ll ssh to a linux box and hack kernel code too. But that is not a meaningful sample.

Most mobile users want good maps, better “messaging” and “mail” integration, some concise calendar stuff, and other shorter-term, on-the-go task-oriented user-facing applications. You can build these in a browser using web content standards, or using something like J2ME. I’m in favor of the web as platform supporting the former.

But mobile devices will always differ enough in form factor and usage mode to induce differentiation, which will result in “mobile web” vs “web” tension. To heal the rifts, we should work on relevant standards. I’m not sure WICD is quite right (see dbaron’s blog), but its heart is in the right place.

/be

]]> By: franklinmint.fm http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7184 franklinmint.fm Sat, 17 Mar 2007 15:49:18 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7184 <strong>Point/Counterpoint...</strong> Daniel K. Appelquist: "He actually said that he doesn’t believe people are going to browse the Web on their phone."...... Point/Counterpoint…

Daniel K. Appelquist: “He actually said that he doesn’t believe people are going to browse the Web on their phone.”……

]]> By: chaals http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-7042 chaals Fri, 16 Mar 2007 07:13:45 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-7042 Hmm. It is true that people who are used to browsing the desktop web (in particular Americans) have been slow to take up the experience of mobile browsing. America has, historically, been slow to take up mobile technology in general. While the first people to get telephones everywhere, Americans were the last in the world to want mobile phones and SMS - and only the fact that they are so rich the technology is effortlessly cheap seems to have put them temporarily ahead of some of the developing world in taking up the technology. The story goes that while Europeans and Japanese are commuting, and Indians and Chinese and Africans can afford a powerful mobile phone but not a computer as well, and central and eastern europeans pay by time/data whether they are on their dial-up lines or mobiles, Americans are sitting in their air-conditioned cars driving from home where their laptop has flat-rate broadband to their work or school, where their laptop has free broadband. With this background, I am somewhat surprised to meet Americans in America (yep, this includes Canadians and Mexicans) who really do "get" the mobile Web. Much as I was surprised when I first moved there a decade ago to find that people who *got* mobile phones were actually rare. And Brendan is right - if you sit at a fast desktop all day there is less incentive to use the web on your phone. But where I think he has misjudged is in the number of people (both in America and more particularly almost everywhere else) who aren't sitting in front of a fast desktop, and can really benefit from the mobile web. People at parties in the US often have laptops, something that is rarer anywhere else I have been. But people at pubs on occasionally do, yet want to find things out, or blog their photos *right now*. People do catch trains and buses in the US. And it is a good bit of time to look for things online. People are starting to realise that while they are glued to their desk watching eBay auctions, in the mobile world people are going to the pub, the park, or the parent-teacher interview and just taking a minute out to check. And WICD. Yes, we mostly implement it already. And we clearly want the pieces of the Web to work well together. We think the working group is correct that making SVG and XHTML work together is important for the Web - whether Xforms is so crucial at this stage is a matter of discussion (which is why there is a working group). What about MathML, or a better plug-in API? Or making sure that the new HTML work is mobile-friendly? It's true that from time to time a specification comes out and says "this is the future of XXXX". From W3C, and from various other places too. Sometimes the spec is good, sometimes it is junk. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - so watching who is drinking that WICD Coolade is and will be interesting. Hmm. It is true that people who are used to browsing the desktop web (in particular Americans) have been slow to take up the experience of mobile browsing. America has, historically, been slow to take up mobile technology in general. While the first people to get telephones everywhere, Americans were the last in the world to want mobile phones and SMS – and only the fact that they are so rich the technology is effortlessly cheap seems to have put them temporarily ahead of some of the developing world in taking up the technology.

The story goes that while Europeans and Japanese are commuting, and Indians and Chinese and Africans can afford a powerful mobile phone but not a computer as well, and central and eastern europeans pay by time/data whether they are on their dial-up lines or mobiles, Americans are sitting in their air-conditioned cars driving from home where their laptop has flat-rate broadband to their work or school, where their laptop has free broadband.

With this background, I am somewhat surprised to meet Americans in America (yep, this includes Canadians and Mexicans) who really do “get” the mobile Web. Much as I was surprised when I first moved there a decade ago to find that people who *got* mobile phones were actually rare.

And Brendan is right – if you sit at a fast desktop all day there is less incentive to use the web on your phone. But where I think he has misjudged is in the number of people (both in America and more particularly almost everywhere else) who aren’t sitting in front of a fast desktop, and can really benefit from the mobile web.

People at parties in the US often have laptops, something that is rarer anywhere else I have been. But people at pubs on occasionally do, yet want to find things out, or blog their photos *right now*. People do catch trains and buses in the US. And it is a good bit of time to look for things online. People are starting to realise that while they are glued to their desk watching eBay auctions, in the mobile world people are going to the pub, the park, or the parent-teacher interview and just taking a minute out to check.

And WICD. Yes, we mostly implement it already. And we clearly want the pieces of the Web to work well together. We think the working group is correct that making SVG and XHTML work together is important for the Web – whether Xforms is so crucial at this stage is a matter of discussion (which is why there is a working group). What about MathML, or a better plug-in API? Or making sure that the new HTML work is mobile-friendly?

It’s true that from time to time a specification comes out and says “this is the future of XXXX”. From W3C, and from various other places too. Sometimes the spec is good, sometimes it is junk. The proof of the pudding is in the eating – so watching who is drinking that WICD Coolade is and will be interesting.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6932 Brendan Eich Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:13:41 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6932 See http://dbaron.org/log/2007-03#e20070314a (David is Mozilla's w3c long-time advisory council and CSS working group representative). be See http://dbaron.org/log/2007-03#e20070314a (David is Mozilla’s w3c long-time advisory council and CSS working group representative).

be

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6791 Brendan Eich Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:17:00 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6791 Lost a line after point 3: The old 1. W3C promulgates a spec. 2. It’s promoted for “the mobile web”. 3. Any browser vendor who objects is labeled “contradicting” or otherwise bad. song and dance won't work. Sorry, but steps 1 and 2 need to be questioned before we get to step 3. /be Lost a line after point 3:

The old

1. W3C promulgates a spec.
2. It’s promoted for “the mobile web”.
3. Any browser vendor who objects is labeled “contradicting” or otherwise bad.

song and dance won’t work.
Sorry, but steps 1 and 2 need to be questioned before we get to step 3.

/be

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6790 Brendan Eich Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:15:35 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6790 Timur: who says WICD is right for either? I know, you and Dan (Vodafone) do, but excuse me: the w3c is a pay-to-play consortium where lots of standards have been advanced by big and small companies, and too many of these standards were never adopted on the web (for any value of web). Mozilla has some hackers on mobile, and our W3C AC rep, all of whom have had a look at WICD. I will have more to say in due course, but I want to register an objection now. The old 1. W3C promulgates a spec. 2. It's promoted for "the mobile web". 3. Any browser vendor who objects is labeled "contradicting" or otherwise bad. Sorry, but steps 1 and 2 need to be questioned before we get to step 3. /be Timur: who says WICD is right for either? I know, you and Dan (Vodafone) do, but excuse me: the w3c is a pay-to-play consortium where lots of standards have been advanced by big and small companies, and too many of these standards were never adopted on the web (for any value of web).

Mozilla has some hackers on mobile, and our W3C AC rep, all of whom have had a look at WICD. I will have more to say in due course, but I want to register an objection now. The old

1. W3C promulgates a spec.
2. It’s promoted for “the mobile web”.
3. Any browser vendor who objects is labeled “contradicting” or otherwise bad.

Sorry, but steps 1 and 2 need to be questioned before we get to step 3.

/be

]]> By: Timur Mehrvarz http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6788 Timur Mehrvarz Wed, 14 Mar 2007 18:01:05 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6788 Brendan, you want ...mobile web content formats to be the same as, or as close to, the non-mobile web content formats... (and I have to agree) but then you say WICD... may not make sense for Firefox, but it might for Minimo. This is a bit contradicting, if you ask me. One of the advantages of using vector scalability, is for mobile oriented services to render well in a desktop environment. SVG Tiny 1.2 works beautifully on mobile phones. Finally, there is a content format, that is able to bring true excitement to small screen, one hand operational devices. WICD is about making this type of content become an integral part of all the Web. Brendan, you want …mobile web content formats to be the same as, or as close to, the non-mobile web content formats… (and I have to agree) but then you say WICD… may not make sense for Firefox, but it might for Minimo.
This is a bit contradicting, if you ask me. One of the advantages of using vector scalability, is for mobile oriented services to render well in a desktop environment. SVG Tiny 1.2 works beautifully on mobile phones. Finally, there is a content format, that is able to bring true excitement to small screen, one hand operational devices. WICD is about making this type of content become an integral part of all the Web.

]]> By: Daniel Appelquist http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6785 Daniel Appelquist Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:58:08 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6785 Thanks for the clarification, Brendan, and apologies again if I misrepresented your views. Thanks for the clarification, Brendan, and apologies again if I misrepresented your views.

]]> By: Brendan Eich http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html/comment-page-1#comment-6749 Brendan Eich Wed, 14 Mar 2007 15:15:47 +0000 http://www.torgo.com/blog/2007/03/browser-panel-at-sxsw.html#comment-6749 Daniel: I promise to look at WICD more closely. It still may not make sense for Firefox, but it might for Minimo. It seems people are not "quoting" me based on your blog as asserting that users never browse the web on mobile devices. Of course I didn't say that, but the echo chamber is in full effect, and idiots love to attribute idiocy to others. /be Daniel: I promise to look at WICD more closely. It still may not make sense for Firefox, but it might for Minimo.

It seems people are not “quoting” me based on your blog as asserting that users never browse the web on mobile devices. Of course I didn’t say that, but the echo chamber is in full effect, and idiots love to attribute idiocy to others.

/be

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